Kung Fu vs. Muay Thai Challenge Matches

cross_trainer · Sep 17, 2013

From http://crane.50megs.com (only accessible through the Wayback Machine).

Unfortunately, the site does not appear to allow the pictures to show. You'll have to click the links for it.

A History of Kung Fu VS Muay Thai

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Left: Hong Kong Taiji expert Hu Sheng in a 1958 Challenge in Ratchadamnern Stadium Bangkok. Right: His fellow Taiji fighter Zhang Yaoqiang. They were the pioneer Kung Fu fighters to face Muay Thai in the Ring. Both were knocked out under 1 round.
In the K1 fighting circuit today, the Muay Thai skill of 3x Champion Peter Aerts continues to dominate the ring. Why do we never see any Sanshou fighters ever competing in K1? One of the reasons why 'Sanshou' in Sport Wushu exist as it is today is due to the many defeats by Kung Fu fighters at the hands of Thai boxers in the past few decades. Sanshou today is virtually a watered down version of amateur Muay Thai. This shows an unwilling admittance of the superiority of Muay Thai techniques & the importance of contact sparring. Though inadequate, it is the best Sport Wushu can offer in reality application. Like amateur Thai boxers, Sanshou competitors are clad in padding from head to toe, but unlike them, they are disallowed elbow & knee attacks. Worse, they are not even allowed to use continuous strikes. Sanshou fighters are only allowed the low roundhouse kicks from the Muay Thai arsenal. Stand-up grappling in Sanshou is adequate, but it would still not be enough against Muay Thai. As a result, put an amateur Thai boxer & Sanshou fighter of similar experience together & the former would almost surely win. Why do the advocates of Sanshou not try to improve on this?

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Left: 1 of the 5 Hong Kong Kung Fu fighters getting knocked out a 1974 Challenge in Lumpinee Stadium, Bangkok. Right: Another Hong Kong Kung Fu fighter whacked in a Muay Thai Expo in Hong Kong, 1981.
Kung Fu experts who fought with Thai boxers through the years always found themselves defenceless against a barrage of low/high roundhouses & elbow/knee strikes in the ring. Some of these experts had tremendous power - they could smash rocks & bricks with bare hands. Yet none of this power prove to be of any use at all in the face of rapid Muay Thai combos. Most of them could not even get a single blow to connect at all. On the other hand, Thai boxers see all sorts of openings in their rigid stances & took advantage of these to great effect. Almost all those Kung Fu fighters lost by knockout. What is the significance of these complete defeats?

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Left: Wushu master Xu Xiaolong smashing a rock with his iron palm in a 1985 Friendly in Shanghai Stadium, China. Right: Xu's iron palm proved ineffective against his Thai opponent a few moments later. The match was declared a draw just as Xu was abt to be knocked out.
The deciding technique that destroys Kung Fu fighters is commonly a roundhouse to the face/ abdomen/ thigh, or knee strikes up close in the ribs. Traditional Kung Fu attacks & defenses were proven to be way obsolete in the world of martial arts today. The inability to fully utilize the legs, & a lack of sparring practice are the greatest weaknesses of old Kung Fu systems. Obviously Kung Fu had neglected leg technique development for more than a millenium, or perhaps they were just too fancy. The Thais have been practicing & perfecting the use of their shins & knees for hundreds of years. They know how to defend against all kinds of attacks, & their bodies & minds are fully conditioned by daily sparring. How could Kung Fu ever bridge this big gap, unless it humbly learns from the strengths of Muay Thai?

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Left: A Malaysian Kung Fu fighter using a knee kick against his Thai opponent in a Sep 1974 Challenge in Kuala Lumpur Stadium. Right: Tan Guancheng, 1 of the 2 famous fighters who actually defeated their Thai opponents by points that day. Tan was nicknamed "The Warrior Sage of Penang (his hometown)".
Bruce Lee was the 1st to see the inadequacies of following blindly the old traditions. He knew that Kung Fu badly needed reform, or faced becoming a vase - nice to behold & keep, but innately fragile & hardly useful. Sport Wushu is perhaps a touched up, modernized version, but essentially still a vase. Sanshou is a half-hearted attempt at reform at best. It is indeed laughable that the Central Govt in China would want today's Wushu to be an Olympic event. Do these communists want to boast to the world how inadequate our 4 thousand-year martial traditions have become?

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Left: Hong Kong fighter Chen Zhaojia facing Montong in a Nov 1981 Challenge in Hong Kong. He was knocked out by knee kicks in 1 round. Right: Fellow fighter Guo Huaqiang also defeated that day. He put up a good fight, but threw in the towel in the 3rd round.

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Traditional Karate Masters who fought & lost - Left: Jul 1974 Lumpini Stadium. 2nd Dan Wado-ryu Karate expert taking a beating from Ramchai. Right: Oct 1974 Ratchadamnern Stadium. 5th Dan Shotokan Karate Shihan fought retired Muay Thai veteran fighter Chuchai. Chuchai won by TKO in the 2nd round.

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THE American Kickboxer's unpublicized defeats - Left: California Mar 1977. Benny 'The Jet' Urquidez's 1st titanic struggle against Thai boxer Nalongleng. A high roundhouse finally downed him after a marathon 9 round. But the judges declared the match a 'No Decision' anyway. Left: Tokyo Rematch Aug 1978. Benny again learning the power of Muay Thai low kicks as well as knees. He lost by decision to Bayud after 6 punishing rounds. It was his 2nd & last defeat. Benny never fought another Thai boxer again.

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Another American Kickboxer who fought & learned - Left: Don 'The Dragon' Wilson beat Che Le & another Thai boxer in Hong Kong 1980. Right: Don getting punished for that by Samart in Lumpinee Stadium Dec 1983. He lost by decision but managed to endure 5 rounds of beating.

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TERRYTIBBS · Sep 17, 2013

kung fu is useless

cross_trainer · Sep 17, 2013

More on the event, from http://web.archive.org/web/20040609180907/http://www.mikemiles.com/sport/hokb/1974.cfm:

Chinese Have a Bad Night in Bangkok

Hong Kong Kung fu exponents who were still nursing their wounded pride after the humiliation they had suffered at the hands of the Muay Thai athletes in late 1973, had come back to Bangkok to challenge the Thai's in a return match. Two of their Kung fu brothers had been knocked out in the 1st round by the Thai boxers and now it was time to exact revenge. Hong Kong team manager Wai Chin explained that his team had been at a disadvantage in the first encounter by having to wear gloves. "Our trained hands are our most effective weapon, and we have to insist on a bare-handed fight this time. We will have our revenge all right", said the manager. After a rule meeting between the Chinese and the Thai’s the following rules were agreed upon;

Each contest and can fight according to their own style.
Each round would consist of five 3 minute rounds with a 2 minute rest period between rounds.
Each bout would be scored by the referee and 2 judges and it would be scored according to the Muay Thai system.
The only illegal techniques would be biting, finger stabs to the eyes, ears and nostrils; scratching; and attacking a downed opponent.

The 'barehand' decision found some concern among the Thai athletes but the promoter Col. Thongterm Pobsook, said any athlete found clowning or not fighting to their full ability would be banned from the stadium (Lumphini) for life. 15,000 fans packed the huge Hua Mark Stadium (an affiliate facility used by the Lumphini organization). An unusually large contingent of Chinese came to watch the bouts excitedly shouting, "Bruce Lee, Bruce Lee" and "Enter you Dragons!". The event opened with an exhibition between 2 members of the Kung fu team. It proved unpopular as the crowd had come to see blood. In the first bout Thai flyweight Krengprinoi Sawsakyon (103 lbs.) squared off with Chen Yew-kuang of Hong Kong (105 lbs.). The Thai was apprehensive about his opponents exposed fingers and moved cautiously, attacking with only a few long range kicks. The Chinese was fast enough to dodge the kicks and he countered quickly with some punches to the Thai’s face. Suddenly the Thai delivered a high roundhouse to the face of his foe followed by a second to the neck which floored the Kung fu man. Clearly shaken, the Chinese struggled to his feet and then moved straight into a powerful punch that put the Chinese out for the count of 10. In the 2nd bout, Samarn Lukpanpo, former Thai Flyweight Champion (114 lbs.) met Tang Li-yuan (111 lbs.). Samarn missed a few round kicks and traded punches while close before landing a kick to the neck that sent the Chinese reeling into the ropes. The Chinese came immediately back with a series of knife hand attacks to the Thai's body. Unfortunately, he got trapped in the corner. The Thai let loose with a series of elbow and knee attacks, then used his gloves to grab the Kung fu mans head, pulled it down and smashed a knee into the Chinese mans face. Bleeding heavily Tang got back up to continue but gave up when he noticed the blood. The fight ended at 2 minutes 20 seconds of the 1st round. The third fight had Thai flyweight Rerngsak Pornthawee (114 lbs.) matched against 115 lbs. Ou Joon-hai. The Chinese was nervous and started running around the ring to stay out of the Thai's reach. The Thai caught the Chinese with a kick to the leg that sent him sprawling to his face on the canvas. After the 8 count, the Kung fu fighter refused to fight and he was booed out of the ring. Time: 1 minute, 22 seconds. The fourth fight was the main event between Thai Bantamweight Champion Nongkai Sawprasorn (119 lbs.) and Hong Kong's Teng Oui-hong (122 lbs.). The Chinese went through a lot of flashy moves and then attacked the Thai with a jumping front kick. The Thai dodged the kick and countered with a roundhouse kick to the kidney region of the Chinese. The kick stopped the Chinese in mid-air and he dropped to the canvas like a sack of rice. The bout lasted 20 seconds. The final bout of the event featured Thai flyweight Payon Sermviset (110 lbs.) against Loo Ui-liang (108 lbs.). With some very fast and powerful hand combinations, the Chinese drove the Thai into the ropes. The Thai had to use some vicious elbow work to get out of trouble. The Thai followed with some strong leg kicks which landed before following up with a head kick which drove the Chinese athlete to the canvas. Payon waited for the Chinese to get back up and then landed a kick to the neck . Loo crumbled to his face and stayed there a lot longer than the 10 count. The Kung fu artist was carried from the ring on a stretcher. In the five matches the Thai’s had knocked all their opponents out in the 1st round and total action came to barely 6 minutes. The Chinese spectators started shouting, "cruelty", "torture", and "Barbarians" were answered with jeers from the Thai audience. According to records this event marked the 4th time there was a confrontation between Kung fu and Muay Thai. In 1921, Tse Shang, a famous Chinese fighter challenged a Thai boxer by the name of Yang Hantalay. Eye witness reports claim that it was the most brutal fight ever seen. It lasted under 3 minutes and the Chinese needed months of medical care to recover. Then in 1958 a team of Tai Kek were all beaten by Thai boxers. All the fights ended in 1st round KO'es. None of the fighters from the 1973 matches appeared in the 1974 matches. The Hong Kong manager Wai Chin said, "I've had enough. Never again. Muay Thai is too dangerous to be a sport."

Singapore Kung Fu Stylists Fail to Defeat Muay Thai

Disturbed by the losses of Kung Fu fighters from Hong Kong at the hands and feet of Thai boxers during a number of recent challenge matches, and annoyed at the increased arrogance of Muay Thai followers who claim Muay Thai is unbeatable, a group of Martial Artists from Singapore issued a challenge to fight the Thai's anywhere in the world. This turned out to be Bangkok, where 3 chan tung stylists arrived to battle with the Thai’s. Chan tung is reported to be a mixture of Tae Kwon-Do and Kung fu. 20,000 fans came to Radgdamnern Stadium to watch what turned out to be another disaster for the Chinese. Thailand's number 1 rated middleweight Prapai Sitchumpon and Michael Lee, a well known Lightheavyweight on the Singapore tournament circuit battled in a bout that lasted only 90 seconds. The Thai finished the bout with a flying knee to Lee's solar plexus. Radgdamnern's Welterweight Champion Saensak Muangsurin battled Singapore's Tae Yien-chen, nicknamed the "Black Killer" because he is reported to have killed an opponent with a chop during a tournament a few years earlier. It was Tae's reputation that made the Thai's insist that the Singapore athletes wore gloves. The first round had both athletes cautiously eyeing each other to find defensive weakness. In round 2, the Thai moved in with heavy body punches, driving the Chinese into a corner. A high left kick dropped the Chinese who at 1 minute and 20 seconds into the second round, had lasted longer than any other non-Thai stylist in the recent grudge matches. Radgdamnern's top lightweight Netr Saknarong battled Yia Lee-lee in about which also never lasted through the first round. An early left kick by the Thai dropped the Chinese, who staggered to his feet and received a vicious left hook to the neck that put him down for the count.
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Kung Fu vs. Muay Thai Challenge Matches

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Kung Fu vs. Muay Thai Challenge Matches

cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member