Liston explains the 2nd Ali fight

Liston's explanation seems 100% consistent with what happened. With Ali standing over him yelling (instead of going to a neutral corner like he was supposed to), with the count not going on, why get up?

 

This is how Ive always seen it. Ive never understood the idea that Liston threw the fight when he actually got up and was fighting only to have the completely befuddled Walcott stop it on the advice of Nat ****ing Fleischer who wasnt even an official. Liston got blamed for a cluster **** that wasnt of his making.

 

Well Liston got and still does get a lot of flack for this fight but he's right. Ali should've been directed to go to a neutral corner b4 Walcott would start counting. And tbh, if Nunn can catch Kalambay cold what's to say that Ali couldn't do something similar? It's the punches that you don't see that can still cause knock downs due to not being ready to embrace the impact. Speed can b a k1ller regardless if that boxer who landed isn't known to b a puncher. Can't wait to read up on that era!

 

Supposedly Walcott didn't ref again until almost 15 yrs later I find that to b something to look into as well but the obvious guess would b bcuz of this fight.

 

Walcott's mistake I reckon.

 

It's just how Liston rolled over in a very fake way that doesn't really jive with this, otherwise it seems very reasonable. A shame that Walcott messed the whole thing up by stopping the fight.

 

Always agreed with this take.

- Dives are extremely rare in boxing, and virtually unheard of at the championship levels.
- Cus D'Amato gave an interview after the fight backing up Liston's version of events.
- Ali in private said that the punch was clean and the knockdown was legit.
- In the commonly seen film of the fight, all we see is Liston rolling over. Ali is out of the frame, and a large piece of context is missing.

 

Ali contradicted himself by first screaming at Liston to get up and then initiating a victory dance even before 10 seconds had elapsed since Liston hit the deck.

If Ali was initially worried about anyone thinking it was fake - he certainly had a quick change of heart - happy to “preempt” his victory by celebrating same even before Liston could be deemed as “out”.

Liston’s fake roll is a problem. It did, however, coincide with Ali again buzzing close by in his circulate victory dance.

Maybe it was how Liston dealt with not wanting to arise with Ali still too close.

Otherwise, you could speculate that Liston did want to stay down after a legit flash KD - but wouldn’t it better to just stay flat down than to feign arising and falling back down again?

Some say even if intending to dive by staying down, Liston had no choice but to get back up eventually because Walcott simply wasn’t applying a count - a count that Liston might’ve been waiting for but could no longer stall himself for.

 

But wouldn't Ali have been disqualified for striking a downed Liston, thus automatically losing the match?
Seems to me that Liston should have tried getting up and bank on an over excited Ali to foul him and lose the title.

 

Welcome back mate

 

The thing is, actions made in the heat of combat and emotion/adrenaline aren’t always rational.

You ask “wouldn’t it be better to just stay flat down rather than to feign arising and falling back down again?”

If we accept that Liston didn’t get up because Ali was standing over him raving like a madman, what part of Sonny’s brain would go to “well, let’s see, I can either lay down flat or I can arise and fall back down again?” Even a flash knockdown can leave one groggy or discombobulated for a few seconds, thoughts scattered by an unseen blow that puts one on the canvas. We’ve all read tales of what fighters say flashed through their heads when knocked down, and it isn’t linear, rational stuff.

Even if we look at it as Liston taking a dive, how would he know the best way to go about it? Maybe he expected Joe to be counting and wanted to do the old ‘get up at 11’ so the fight gets waved off but it looks like he’s trying to beat the count and just couldn’t quite do it. Maybe because he’s never thrown a fight by trying to see as if he got KO’d he just didn’t know how to go about it. Maybe it was his intent to throw the fight and he started having second thoughts and began to arise and then said to himself, ‘nah, I need to go through with it and throw this fight’ because … he was being paid handsomely to do so, because the mob was threatening his family, because in that moment he decided he was going to be done with boxing anyway and retire (but for whatever reason changed his mind) — there are a ton of scenarios that fit this.

I think the issue is looking at it like a staged Hollywood scene or a carefully-laid-out plan or as if people are going to react how we think they might in the heat of a moment.

As for Ali standing over him and screaming to get up, that can be seen from one side as “get up, this isn’t going to look real” if it’s a fix or “get up so I can knock you back down … I put your ass on the canvas already and I’ll do it again.” Heck, I’ve seen fighters celebrating in the neutral corner thinking they had a KO win and the opponent beat the count and they have to go back to fighting.

 

Would you get up if you thought your opponent was crazy enough to wallop you while you were defenseless?

 

Hi guys
Not sure if the elder statesmen of the forum had/have heard this, apparently Liston had got wind of a assasination attempt was to be carried out on Clay by the KKK or some such organisation on fight night, and had said to a member of his inner circle, " some crazy guy with a rifle will be looking to shoot a black man in that small ring tonight, and one of us is as fast as hell " who knows...
stay safe guys.

 

Can’t disagree with any of those possibilities.

All equally valid propositions.

If one firmly believes in one motive or another, or one random, isolated thought or another going through the fighter’s mind, it will determine the permutation they choose to accept or at least believe to be the most likely.

Just my summation: -

No pre med dive.

Of course it was no phantom punch (but mud has stuck with that labelling) as first believed - a punch definitely landed - however people might feel about the quality of that punch and it’s justified effects, many in attendance didn’t even see it land - thus the initial disbelief and suspicions.

It was surprising enough that slo mo revealed a connection not seen in real time, more surprising again for many that it was actually a solid punch, a great counter shot supplemented by the compounding effect of Liston moving in.

Up to that point, I’m good with a legit flash KD.

As to Ali’s actions, most fighters do either/or - but Ali contrarily did both - demanding Liston get as soon as he hit the deck (impossible for any fallen fighter to do) but then preempting his own victory by raising his arms and performing a circular victory dance.

Just to repeat, as Liston began to rise he appeared to let himself fall back down at the very moment Ali was zooming back in close - so that could explain and support why Liston’s fall back to the canvas appeared contrived - simply to avoid getting hit on the way back up - as opposed to feigning grogginess and trying to legitimise a pre med dive or even an ad hoc dive that only came to his mind after a legit flash KD.

Ali’s histrionics were OTT - for all his showmanship in the past, his behaviours in that fight were unprecedented and, in fact, acutely illegal.

If anything comes closest but not necessarily close, it was Ali’s later conduct in the Bonavena fight. After the first KD, Ali refused to go to a neutral corner.

He even slapped down the ref’s outstretched restraining arm in his efforts to get back to the rising Bonavena.

Obviously, that was a KO that Ali really wanted and would do anything to see through in the final round.

Despite how dominant and great Ali looked in the short time the fight against Liston lasted - (an audible, jarring right hand lead landed earlier was a precursor of and to doom for Liston) I believe Ali was still wary and respectful of Liston - Sonny still being a guy not to be trifled with.

Once Ali sniffed blood, Ali wanted to put Liston out for good asap. His urgent behaviours after Liston went down reflected this imo.

Also not noted as often it seems, possibly due to cropping of frame, when Liston jabbed, all his weight was on his lead left foot - and that foot was notably levered up upon contact of Ali’s over the top, chopping down punch to Liston’s left cheek bone.

There is a side view of the KD, also not seen as often, and that right hand was almost inhumanly fast and Liston dropped immediately upon connection - looked very legit imo - nigh impossible to simulate to create the illusion of a dive.

The events in Maine have and will always be a great talking point - with many varied and equally valid view points on offer.