Overlooked Reasons Why Muhammad Ali Beat George Foreman

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Showstopper97, Mar 20, 2022.


  1. Showstopper97

    Showstopper97 The Icon Full Member

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    The "Rumble in the Jungle" is the most historic event in boxing (& perhaps sports) history. It concluded with Ali dethroning the menacing Foreman (who many saw as an upgraded version of Sonny Liston) with a stunning KO in dramatic fashion. Ali would be known as "The Greatest" shortly after.

    Years after this historic event, fans, writers & journalists alike have concluded that Ali's style was wrong for Foreman & that he'd always have his number. This is partially true, but not that simple (IMO). I think Ali's style would have always given Foreman fits, but not fits that he couldn't overcome. In fact, I'm one of the few who think Prime 73-74 Foreman would have beat Prime 65-67 Ali & would have beaten Ali in a rematch in 76-77 by KO/TKO.

    He was good at cutting off the ring & imposing himself on retreating or come-forward fighters (especially come-forward fighters). 60s Ali never faced a fighter who could cut off the ring against him. An ageing Liston couldn't. Bad-back Patterson couldn't. Plodding Chuvalo couldn't. Handicapped Williams couldn't. Stiff Folley couldn't. None of these guys (except Patterson & somewhat Liston) had good footwork or could cut off the ring. Foreman would be the exception. He would cut the ring off Ali early - making Ali fight more than he wants. An exchange early with Foreman could be lethal for Ali. This isn't the seasoned, physically stronger, rope-a-dope Ali of the 70s, but the speedy, hit & run boxer who was primarily a stick & mover. Not saying Ali wouldn't or couldn't win, but I am saying he'd have his work cut out for him.

    Some of the main reason Muhammad Ali beat George Foreman are:

    #1: Location - It was bizarre to everyone why they'd have a fight of this magnitude in the Africa - which at the time was considered impoverished (much moreso than today) & barbaric. Looking back now, it makes sense & the trip to Africa made the fight that much more special, but at the time it was seen as an odd location of choice.

    #2: The Atmosphere - Ali had the crowd in magnitudes heavily on his side. They constantly screamed "Ali Bomaye" (Bomaye = Kill Him). Having a whole nation against you must take a huge psychological toll on a you - so you can only imagine what Foreman was feeling at this time.

    #3: Voodo/Witchcraft - There were also rumours of shamans, witch-doctors & voodoo specialists who were trying to put a spell on Foreman (as he was a huge favourite) so that Ali could win. Once again, this must have taken a huge psychological toll on Foreman - as he ordered all his food & water to be imported from the states, as he didn't trust the African people (rightfully so).

    So these are the main overlooked reasons. What's your take?
     
  2. Jon Saxon

    Jon Saxon Active Member Full Member

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    Clay , would have danced around him and turned him all night.
    I think the prime Ali, Clay from the 60s would have made George look silly.
     
  3. ThatOne

    ThatOne Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Ali was past it in 1976 and was for all intents and purposes done in 1977.
     
  4. Entaowed

    Entaowed Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    Ali was declining by the year after late 1975/Manilla, older & absorbed damage in the Frazier fights, so it is not at all unusual to pick Foeman over an even 1976 Ali. As I would.

    I can see your case for prime Ali losing, but with his greater speed & endurance I would still pick him.
    But not necessariky under conditions in Zaire-heat's gonna be a little worse on somneone expending more energy, but themain problemn is that ring was SMALL-& soft.
    Ali resorted the the rope a dope because he saw Saw he would take 2 steps for Foreman's one-who was faster than he thought-& cushy rings hurt movers/endurance.

    However he had an advantage that he may have needed to win in Zaire, at least considerations those conditions.
    Getting away with frequent hands behind the neck & pulling Foreman down with his body weight.
    I dunno if he does this so effectively in the 1960's, & he never needed to.

    The loose ring ropes was a problem with equipment size/competence, Dundee did not cheat, & I do not know if he needed that to win.

    As much as I admire Ali in Zaire, without this cheating & he was already out on his feet once or twice, AND considering ring conditions, he may well have lost.
     
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  5. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    Prime Ali was early 70's Ali, when he trained. He wasn't the waterbug boxer type who was good until the stakes got raised. In the 70's he was able to dig down and bruise. And he either got much stronger or realized how strong he was, A lot of Ali's success against Foreman was due to his STRENGTH. He was manhandling George with skill and muscle. I met Ali in 1990 and he was still a very impressive dude, bigger than the measurables, just not built like your ordinary 6-3 guy, even at that age. Casuals get enamored with his speed but he was a complete athlete.
     
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  6. Rollin

    Rollin Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Those are the main circumstances mentioned when the fight is brought up, along with Foreman being cut before the fight and not sparring for nearly a month prior to it. You could add him being an arrogant fool and not bothering to watch Ali's tapes, as well as displaying the single lowest ring IQ in the history of boxing because he was on a power-drunk bender at the time.

    Tony Galento displayed higher ring intelligence in his fight with Louis, because he actually wanted to foul the hell out of da bum, only he was stopped by his corner.
     
  7. Saintpat

    Saintpat Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    The postponement is a good one, and not just because of the cut limiting Foreman somewhat (I believe he did spar after it healed but probably didn’t peak again).

    But it also kept him imprisoned in an unfamiliar land where Ali had turned himself into the hero returning to his roots. To Ali, fighting in Africa was a pilgrimage, a spiritual experience. He soaked it up and soaked it into his very being.

    Ali seized upon the cut and postponement in his famous ‘The man want out’ press conference calling upon the forces in Zaire to keep Foreman from leaving — the truth was, there was great fear that if Foreman left the fight (and huge payday) would fall apart and never come back together again. Ali called for the armed forces and police to search all cars, all planes, all elephant caravans (haha) to make sure George didn’t sneak out.

    Ali was also more comfortable in uncomfortable surroundings than Foreman … or perhaps than any fighter and most men who ever lived. He was a citizen of the world who belonged to the world. Whether Africa or the Philippines or Europe or wherever, Ali felt at home. He surrounded himself with people he liked and trusted and they created a comfort zone that traveled well.

    On a technical end, addressing some of the points of @Showstopper97 — we don’t know if George would have adeptly cut off Ali so well in a faster ring. Part of the reason Ali went to the ropes was the canvas padding was so thick Ali couldn’t maneuver the way he wanted, so in a regular Madison Square Garden ring it may have been different … or maybe not.

    But whatever the case, Ali had one weapon that we saw repeatedly against George that would probably have worked against any version of Foreman provided Ali wasn’t on his last legs: that right cross. He landed it at will, and he landed it solidly with force. He could not miss. It was shooting fish in a barrel, and I believe that would have been the case regardless of when or where.

    Finally, Ali was the best mental fighter probably ever. He could get in someone’s head like nobody else. He could also psyche himself up in ways most could not. When people say boxing is 90 percent mental, Ali won 100 percent of that 90 percent, so to speak. Where others cowered from Sonny Liston’s glare, he instead rose to bully the bully. He got Frazier so mad the man was seeing red and wasn’t thinking. He basically dominated the mental game against Foreman, and I think that would have always been the case.
     
  8. djanders

    djanders Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Ali was a Master at finding ways to win, especially after facing an opponent once already. I'm probably in the minority in thinking that an immediate rematch may have gone even worse for George. The Greats have always been like that. They adjust and it gets harder fighting them a second time. Joe Louis was another Great who was the same way. There have been others.
     
  9. Rollin

    Rollin Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Unless it's Ali of '66 or before, I don' t think he is outmaneuvering Foreman for an extended period of time. Muhammad never argued or haggled about the ring in Zaire, because he knew he likely won't be able to stick and move against George, just like he wasn't too keen on boxing him in the middle of the ring post round 1.

    Ali only landed the right cross at will in the first round when Foreman was carrying his left absurdly low. Likely overconfidence or a slow start. Coming into the second round, Foreman leverage guarded or muffled most of the crosses forcing Ali to commit to the rope-a-dope more and more, until he got George tired and desperate for a knockout. The fight is best watched without a sound and at slow motion, because commentators and the crowd's reactions really change the perception of it. There were many moments when Foreman had Ali almost disarmed and incapable of throwing a significant punch because of the long guard an an extended rear hand. Norton was in a similar situation, except in Zaire, Foreman became the dope and believed he can knock a man of unbreakable will.
     
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  10. Journeyman92

    Journeyman92 Bob N Weave Full Member

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    George just wasn’t that good.
     
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  11. Showstopper97

    Showstopper97 The Icon Full Member

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    Yes. I forgot to mention that. Constantly pulling someone's head down & leaning on them will surely tire them out - even worse in a very hot country like Zaire.

    Yeah I'm not one of the ones who think the ropes helped him significantly.

    Absolutely
     
  12. Showstopper97

    Showstopper97 The Icon Full Member

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    I do agree with the last bit, despite how harsh it sounds. I'm always shocked at how bad Foreman's game-plan & strategy was in that fight. He neglected his jab. He didn't pace himself. He threw wild & amateurish punches (much moreso than ever before). This spells a recipe for disaster for someone of Ali's caliber & Ring IQ. I wonder what the hell his corner was telling him between rounds?...

    Again, I have to agree.
     
  13. Showstopper97

    Showstopper97 The Icon Full Member

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    Yes. You make two very good points. The cut 8 days before the initial date (September 23rd), would have hindered Foreman from training effectively (even after it healed) & make him cautious of the cut re-opening. Your next point about Ali using this as a way to garner the nation's support is spot on. I stated this as well
    Ali had the nations support 100%. He was the hero, Foreman was the villain, and the citizens of Africa wanted to see the hero vanquish the big, bad villain.
     
  14. Showstopper97

    Showstopper97 The Icon Full Member

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    True, but I still believe Foreman would have cut off the ring better than anyone Ali faced in the 60s. This would have been new for Ali & probably shocked him that someone could not only keep up, but also effectively cut the ring off from him.
     
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  15. Boxed Ears

    Boxed Ears this my daddy's account (RIP daddy) Full Member

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    Clay actually fought and defeated six brothers in the amateurs-the Turner brothers-knocking out one, named Cyrus. Ironically, one of the Turners was said to have been Nat Turner, of no relation. No relation to Clay. Whereas some of the other Turners were distantly related, theoretically. But those were simpler times then.