Sugar Ray Leonard was Better than Sugar Ray Robinson

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You made a lot of good points but in the field of foot speed, Robinson's demonstrated quicker feet.

 

Ray Sugar Robinson fought Jake Lamotta, his injuries from the previous fight with the same opponent still not healed.
Such a boxing philosophy is alien to both Sugar Ray Leonard and all modern professional boxers.
Is this a valid argument?

 

Nope. You can't hold that as a slight against Leonard an his character

Leonard would have done the same if he fought in Robinsons era an Robinson wouldn't have done it if he fought in Leonards era.

 

Hi Joey.
Thinking this might be the first time we have corresponded, if so the pleasure is all mine, admire the boldness of your assertion, Robinson is seen by lots as the all time P4P, of late the likes of Greb @ Langford have challenged that somewhat, but still, a bold claim by your good self,
on first reading I was a tad dismissive, but you backup your thought process admirably with some on point and hard to argue with observations , my brow furrowed with you saying that he beat " low level " fighters in most of his fights, nearly all fighters in the early stages of their careers fight fairly mundane opponents, mind you in Robinsons case his early opponents were the likes of, Angott, Servo, Zivic, of whom he beat not once but twice, also Bell, Costner, then as you say LaMotta, who out weighed Ray by 12 lbs or so, no mean feat, Abrahams was given a boxing lesson while also being much the heavier fighter, all the above before Ray entered his 3rd year of fighting, I believe, while Leonard was fighting and beating, Price, Gant, Viruet, Ranzany, no disrespect to these fighters, but none were ever champs, unlike the boxers Robinson beat, could Leonard have won against Robinson, yes I believe he could, was he a all round better fighter than Robinson, not so sure.
That said, enjoyed your post, and look forward to many more.
stay safe buddy.

 

i understand your argument but am pretty solidly on the other side.

the post above say well what i would have.

 

Robinson beat Henry Armstrong who's rated higher than Duran, and also beat Kid Gavilan who has a better Welterweight record than Hearns.

Also Robinson wouldn't lose to Duran at Welterweight.

 

I think Robinson is the better and the greater fighter. As far as greatness goes, I think Robinson is indisputably ahead, beating guys like Gavilan, LaMotta, Zivic, Angott, Turpin, Bell, Fullmer, Abrams, Costner, Basilio, Graziano etc just makes for a better resume than Leonard's. All those guys were ATG's at best and top contenders at worst. But in terms of in-ring ability, the gap between them is actually smaller than most think, even if I do have Robinson ahead.

Leonard had the faster hands and most likely the faster feet, and I actually do agree that he was better on the inside than Robinson. I would even go as far as saying he was physically stronger than Robinson, who was outmuscled multiple times by other opponents, and whose physical strength was always noted as his biggest weakness as a fighter. That said, Robinson was a much better one handed puncher and combination puncher, Leonard's flashy flurries were nice, but he never hit someone in 5+ punch combinations the way Robinson did, Leonard could just never put that kind of leverage and power on multiple shots, having each one be a fight ending shot. I also disagree with the notion that Robinson had inferior footwork, look at this moment 6 minutes and 44 seconds in this video.

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Robinson managed to land a 2 punch combination with full leverage while moving backwards and counter-clockwise at the same time, and managed to send Dykes crumbling to the ropes. That is absolutely insanse, Leonard never came close to doing something so magical with his feet. As far as his jab, counterpunching and Ring IQ go, then I don't think they're worse than Leonard's either. He could use his jab to measure distance, set up shots, bait his opponent to throw shots and then counter them, and dictate the pace of the fight brilliantly.

His Ring IQ was great as well, his KO's of Graziano and Fullmer are great examples. He hit Graziano with a left hook, and Graziano put up his guard since he was expecting a right hand, but then Robinson threw another left hook which opened up Graziano, and then threw the fight ending right hand. All that in a moment's notice, brilliant. Against Fullmer, he was baiting him to hit him with his famous right hand, so Robinson hit Fullmer's left flank with 2 rights to the body, establishing a pattern, then he subtly feinted a right hand, opening up Fullmer, prior to hitting him with arguably the single most devastating left hook ever, and dropping him for the first and last time in his career.

 

OP said he meant it from an ability standpoint, not resume/greatness wise. Wouldn't say Robinson would beat Duran at Welterweight with much confidence either. They're both hell for each other.

 

I appreciate that you started this post advising this is about how they look on film (though then later go on to admit we don't have film of SRR during his peak, so doesn't seem a fair comparison) rather than a resume comparison, however your "low level fighters" comment has triggered me to post the below comparison of their records at WW only:

SRR:

Lineal WT record - 6-0 during his 4-year reign
Overall Record - 39-0
Key wins - Kid Gavilan x 2 (my all time #7 WW), past prime Henry Armstrong (my all time #4 WW & #4 p4p), Frtitzie Zivic, Sammy Angott x 2, Marty Servo x 2, Tommy Bell x 2, California Jackie Wilson x 2, Jimmy Doyle, Charlie Fusari, Norman Rubio, Izzy Jannazzo, Ralph Zanelli & Jimmy McDaniels
Loses - None

SRL:

Lineal WT record - 7-1 during his 7-month & 2-years reigns
Overall Record - 29-1
Key wins - Tommy Hearns (my #8 all time WW), Wilfred Benetiz, Roberto Duran, Dave Boy Green, Pete Ranzany, Andy Price, Floyd Mayweather Snr and Randy Shields
Loses - 1 to Roberto Duran

So, SRR won more, lost less and in my view clearly has the better win resume. Which is why I rank him #1 all time at WW & SRL at #2.

Above WW, there really is no comparison, the depth of SRR's win resume above WW is vastly superior to SRL.

All that said, SRL is a great fighter, a lock for the top 20 p4p all time, imo, which is pretty damn great. It's just SRR is a lock for a top 4 p4p all time.

 

Hi Greg.
Seen in black and white print, it's a stark reminder that Robinson fought the better opponents, thinking @Joeywill was a tad mistaken with the " low level " comment, which triggered my post, but a very thoughtful post nonetheless, and with lots of salient points.
stay safe buddy.

 

Ray Robinson vs the Benitez, Duran , Hearns and Hagler that Leonard fought at the time he fought them:
Benetiz , Robinson by 12 TKO he can't compete with Robinson
Duran,, the way to bet is Robinson by UD , but this is Robinson's toughest fight.
Hearns,,Ray Robinson by 8th round KO, 1st time he clips Tommy with a hook he's wobbled
Hagler, this version had declined. Robinson by wide UD