Was Luis Sarria the real, secret trainer of Muhammad Ali?

Joe Martin the Police Officer was Muhammad Ali's first trainer in 1954, when Ali learned how to box, someone stole his bicycle. Archie Moore was Ali's trainer following the 1960 Olympic games, at the request of the Louisville Group. Ali did not like the discipline of Moore, kind of like Wax On, Wax Off. So he went to Angelo Dundee. Ali did have various corner men throughout his career. Chickie Ferrera, and Luis Sarria, to name a few.

 

Boxers in the 1960s and 1970s didn't have 'conditioning coaches.' (LOL) That's a relatively modern term.

Sarria worked with Ali every day in camp. Got him in shape. Made him run. Made him do situps and pushups. Made him hit the bags. Watched him spar. Put him thru his exercises. Rubbed him down every day of camp. That is a trainer.

If you hired a trainer, that's what a trainer would do for you. And, in the 70s, Wali Muhammad came on board and did much of the same things.

It's clear, Dundee was a hands-on trainer with ALOT of the other boxers he handled in the 1950s and 1960s. He even served as manager and trainer for a many.

But it's not clear he had the same role with Ali. Hell, Archie Moore trained a young Ali for a while before they actually had a falling out and fought each other.

What training was Dundee responsible for when it came to Ali? How did he "train" Ali? Be specific. Because there are a THOUSAND quotes from everyone saying Ali did what he wanted and Ali was the boss. Did Dundee hire the sparring partners? Did Dundee tell Ali how many miles to run? Did Dundee select the opponents?

People on here said Dundee "came up with the fight plans." How did Ali's fight plans differ from fight to fight exactly? When he was young, he jabbed and moved. When he was older and couldn't, he'd take shots on the ropes and then jab and move for a minute or two a round.

What strategies did Dundee come up with? (LOL) Be specific.

You seem very dismissive of Sarria, who everyone credits with getting Ali in shape and extending his boxing career. Sarria clearly was not THE MAN IN CHARGE. He didn't even speak English. But, really, nobody was more in charge of Ali's training than Ali himself.

Dundee showed up for a couple weeks before the fight to earn his check, talk to reporters, watch Ali train and work the corner for the fight. He was HEAD TRAINER in name only. He couldn't even stop the Holmes fight until Ali's manager gave the go-ahead to call it.

If he was actually the HEAD trainer, he should've been run out of the sport for allowing Ali to get in the ring against Holmes and Berbick. He certainly did a bang-up job training Ali for those. (rolls eyes)

And Ali was living in Chicago by the mid 60s, because he wanted to be near Elijah Muhammad after he converted to Islam. That's where he met his second wife. And that's where they lived.

Ali was a pro for 21 years. You can count the years he "walked" to a gym every day in Miami on a couple fingers.

 

I don't think he's being dismissive of Sarria, is simply that the previous guy called Dundee overrated and said that Sarria was the secret trainer of Ali when Ali and Sarria himself say that Dundee was the head trainer, so, why are people even arguing about it?

You're using your own standards to define a "head trainer", not stopping a fight or letting a fighter sign a certain match up doesn't take away your position as head trainer, he was literally the guy that ran the camp for Ali and all the other fighters, is there anything else to discuss?, was Alex Ariza the head coach of Pacquiao?.

I mean, just literally refer to Sarria:

“Angelo and the sparring partners earned their money but there were many in the camp that earned high salaries and did absolutely nothing…Few cared for him as a human being.”

“I was training Luis…” Sarria said, “And Ali spoke to me, but I do not speak English. Then he spoke to Angelo and he told me Ali wanted me to massage him…Our friendship started that day.”

He trained a lot of succesful fighters, both amateur and pro but he wasn't the head coach for Dundee's fighters, if you have ever been to a boxing gym, is not weird at all to have an specific trainer guide you through a certain part of the training everyday, that doesn't make him the head coach or the guy that runs the gym.

 

I know Dundee trained a lot of successful fighters. I know he was very hands-on with some of his fighters.

But what did Dundee do for Ali specifically as a trainer?

Did he teach Ali to hold his hands low? Did he teach him to lean straight back from punches? Did he tell him to head hunt and rarely, if ever, throw body punches?

Because Ali fought the same way every fight, until he couldn't like that anymore. Then he'd improvise.

Dundee didn't get Ali in shape. Sarria did.

Did he pick his title challengers? What amazing "strategies" did Dundee come up with from fight to fight with Ali that helped Ali hold the title ... other than pushing a blind Ali off the stool in the Liston fight and telling Ali to "run" ... because Dundee thought the Black Muslims would pummel Dundee if the fight was stopped?

Dundee worked Ali's corner. He was the head cornerman. That was Dundee's job, in essence. The guy Ali brought in for the Ellis fight was there to be the head cornerman. Ali fought like he normally did against Ellis. When Dundee came back, Ali fight the same way he did when Dundee wasn't there.

There was no head trainer. Muhammad Ali was Ali's head trainer. Sarria spent more time with him in the gym working Ali than anyone else did.

I don't know why everyone is bashing Klompton over this. It's all nitpicking, really.

 

What did Dundee coach Ali to do? When did Dundee tell Ali to change his style before a fight? When did Dundee scout an opponent and tell Ali "this is where you MUST attack."

It's nonsense. Dundee was there to be the chief cornerman. Sarria was there every day to get Ali in shape.

But Ali trained when he wanted to train, boxed in the style that everyone said was the wrong way to fight, and did what he wanted during fights.

There was no head guy in charge of Ali's gym or fight performances, except Ali.

 

You're really underestimating what a trainer does, then I guess all boxers should coach themselves after learning the fundamentals since they already know what to do just like Shumenov did. Do you think that the Ali that got almost knocked out by Banks and Henry Cooper and that almost losses against Doug Jones was close to the man that made Liston quit?. Most of the adjustments that a trainer does are really small things like the way you turn your body into a punch or something as simple as the position of your back foot, those small things matter a lot and are the things that fighters work on when they get a pro trainer.

There was a head trainer, Angelo Dundee, he ran the camp, he gave the instructions in the corner and his fighters (and Sarria) knew that he was the head coach, again, it's not even an argument, it's a fact, the 5th Street Gym was owned by Chris Dundee and his brother Angelo was the head coach, that's a fact.

Do you think that Robert Garcia, Freddie Roach or Abel Sanchez are all over every single fighter at their gym all the time?, they're not, but when fight night arrives, they work the corner and their fighters always refer to them as their head coach.

Again, you're mixing facts with opinion, Ali, Sarria, Leonard, Pacheco, they all knew that Dundee was the head coach, they all praised him for that, people are shitting on Klompton for saying that Dundee is overrated and using an argument completely made on the spot, because Sarria nor Ali ever claimed that Sarria was his secret trainer, he was part of the team and got his credit as such.

Just go to any regular gym, ask for the head coach and see if the guy is working with every single fighter during every step of the preparation. They're not.

Sarria himself said that Ali was training with DUNDEE when he spoke to him for the first time and he couldn't even understand him.

It doesn't matter if you don't think that Dundee had great strategies, according to his boxers, to his team, to Sarria, to the boxing world, he was the head coach at the 5th Street Gym.

Freddie Roach is the head coach of Pacquiao, it doesn't matter how many rounds he does on the mitts with Buboi, it doesn't matter how many sit ups and how many miles he ran with Ariza, Roach is the one who runs the Wild Card gym and the corner.

 

I agree 100%. Bundini was a celebrated spare part. Entirely Necessary in the way a maraca player might be during an earthquake. The silhouette during the credits of a bond film...

 

I know what trainers do. I'm not underestimating anyone.

I know Dundee trained and managed and made a huge imprint on many fighters. I give him full credit for that. But you seem to want to twist this into some indictment of all trainers or how Dundee ran his gym. This isn't even an indictment of Dundee.

Ali ran Ali's camp. Others got Ali in shape, which everyone admits happened, Dundee included. Dundee was brought in to be the chief cornerman before fights, which he was. That was the setup.

When did Dundee say he taught Ali anything? When did Ali say he learned something new from Dundee? Even when Ali said he had a new "Anchor Punch" which stopped Liston, he said he learned it from Steppin Fetchit, an old comic. Moore left as Ali's trainer because Ali wouldn't listen to him.

What did Ali work on with Dundee? Holding his hands low? Throwing zero body punches? Leaning straight back to avoid a punch? What did they work on?

When did Dundee come up with the big strategy to win a fight? Name the fight? Any fight? Ali fought the same style the same way throughout the 60s. And when he got too old to do that in the 70s, he fought off the ropes (usually with Dundee telling him not).

When did anyone give Dundee credit for anything other than intentionally making the rip in Ali's glove bigger against Cooper, which resulted in Cooper getting cut a minute or two later or pushing Ali out of the corner when he was blind?

I'm being serious. Fighters talk about how trainers teach them things all the time. What did Dundee teach Ali? Anyone?

Sarria got Ali in shape and didn't speak to anyone. Dundee worked the corner and talked to the press guys.

The real head trainer was Ali. If Ali didn't want to get in shape, he didn't. And if Ali didn't want to listen to his corner during a fight, he didn't. And Ali fought like he wanted to fight, holding his hands down, not punching to the body, pulling straight back from shots, sitting on the ropes taking blows, doing everything he wasn't supposed to do.

I'm not talking about Dundee's relationships with any other fighters, or any other trainer's relationships with their fighters, just Dundee's relationship with Ali.

Sarria got Ali in shape. Dundee was there to step up and work the corner on fight night.

 

I think it was exactly like that!

 

Cooper was cut on the right eye in the 2nd rd and badly gashed on the left eyebrow in the 3rd rd. Cooper wasn't knocked down till the end of the 4th rd and Dundee drew the split stitching around the thumb of the glove to the attention of the referee between the 4th and 5th rds .